Episode 14 Timeslips Part 1

Hello everyone, my name is Graham Milne.

My name is Kevin Swanson.

Welcome to Lights on Still Scared, where today we'll be talking about time slippers. What's your thoughts on time slips?

Ooh Timey Wime Yes.

Time slips are interesting because time slips to me anyway, in my slight knowledge of the subject, would appear to be when people witness a supernatural event that's played over from the past that involves more than one spirit. So it could be a battle, it could be uh a crowd at a gathering, it could be a hanging, it could be anywhere where there's been groups of people, predominantly in not so nice circumstances I have to say, but occasionally, you know, not pretty normal things. Uh we've got a few examples today to share with you, which uh should be fun. Um so would you like to kick off today, Karen?

Yes, yes, I I'd like to kick off with those Romans.

The Romans.

They're Romans in York.

They are they're in York.

Always Romans.

Have you been to York?

I have. I was in York uh 14 years ago. Very nice.

I do like York, it's very nice. Uh so yes, so hidden behind York Minster, which is a very nice church. Cathedral, church, cathedral. Oh, that's a minster. Nice. Uh Treasurer's house is now owned by uh the National Trust. Um the present building dates largely from the 17th and 18th century, but its foundation sits directly above the remains of a Roman fortress.

Yes.

Aberacrom?

I'll go with that.

Let's go with that as well. Let's go with that one. One of the most important military bases in Roman Britain. Archaeology investigations have shown that a major Roman road passed beneath the cellar, approximately three metres below the modern surface. So the Orchid itself is one of the greatest cities of Roman Britain. Founded in AD 71 by the Ninth Legion and later occupied by the Sixth Legion. Uh, it became the military headquarters of Northern Britain.

Very good.

So, yeah, so it's got quite a big history when it comes to the old Roman Empire. The most well-known story is uh witnessed by Harry Martindale. Um he was 18 at the time, and he was uh apprentice plumber heating engineer. And this happened in February 1953. Right. And he was in the cellar of the treasurer's house. Um so he was helping install a new central heating system in the cellar.

Yeah.

He had no particular interest in the paranormal by his own accounts, had never experienced anything unusual before that day. So throughout his life, he constantly maintained the same version of events and refused payment for reincounting his experience. Something that often noted by researchers when assessing his credibility. Yes. So he didn't go off to the local papers or anything, he didn't try to to make any money or to whatsoever. And he still maintained that story as well uh through his life.

He appeared in, and I know you as you say, he didn't ask for money, but I think as a much older man, and I don't think he was alive much uh m longer after that. He was involved in a program, I'm gonna say the early 80s, it's on YouTube. It's one of these you know, these great old British ghost story programmes were so good because it was just like no drama, it was just people telling stories, and it interviewed him as a much older guy, yeah, and he was incredibly credible as a as a witness, yeah, and you know, like he's got no vested interest in this at all.

And his story never changed.

Yeah, it was a fantastic story, and I mean good God. Wild.

Yeah, so the the story goes that it was close to midday when Harry, it's second day working in the cellar, so he didn't found that there was anything at all the previous day, and he was standing several rungs on a ladder, chiseling through the brickwork to install the heating pipes, and the work had become routine for several hours underground. Then he heard a sound, not a voice or footsteps, just a clear note, like a blast of a Roman military trumpet or horn. At first he assumed it was coming from elsewhere in the building, and moments later he heard it again, uh but this time it was louder.

Right.

The third blast came from directly from the wall behind him. So he looked down and most silently through the solid wall was the top of a helmet, and the figure slowly stepping into the cellar, followed by another and then another. Soon an entire file of Roman soldiers was marching across the room. Um later uh Harry estimated that there was about nine or ten pairs of soldiers and company what appeared to be a horse, and the soldiers showed no sign of notice to him. They marched in formation, talking quietly among themselves, exactly as if they were in routine patrol. Um obviously Harry Harry was terrified, uh, fell backwards from the lander and scrambled in the corner cellar, convinced he'd witnessed something impossible. But he still continued to watch. So what did he actually see? Did he see a whole load of whole load of people? The way he described them, they had weathered faces, dusty appearance, green tunics, uh leather sandals strapped almost to the knee, round shields carried on the left arm, short swords and daggers hanging from the right hand side, plumed helmets on some of the men. Um, and said one soldier appeared to be leading a horse. So I suppose the most strangest thing was that they were only visible from the knee up.

Yeah, yeah, I found out.

What's is interesting is that first of all they said, well, they just made it up. Why would soldiers be missing their lower legs and all that? But later on, archaeologists working beneath the treasurer's house confirmed that the Roman road laid well below the modern cellar floor, and the soldiers would have been marching on the ancient road surface, yeah. Which sat lower than Harry's standing position, so they would have been a couple of feet more. And initially, historians questioned Harry's description of the soldiers as well. They said, no, well, you know, it doesn't make any sense the way he described them. But then later historic research suggests that his descriptions met soldiers from the later Roman occupation of Britain, particularly the fourth century auxiliary troopers rather than the iconic Imperial legions. So that all makes sense from what he actually said. Yeah. Uh the way he described them, yeah. That's a good bizarre, it's a good story. But were they a time slip or did he go back in time?

Well, I'm not sure, but I tell you there's um Roman legions have been seen quite often. And I know uh I spoke to a guy a few years ago from Crief, and and I think he used an electrician, and he he told me that one of his neighbours had seen a Roman legion, if you like, walk through their front room while they're watching the telly, which is quite interesting. And I used actually a Roman road because at the time they had no idea about it, and as uh as a very uh it was like a standing stone and uh it's like it's adjacent to a motorway now, but it was an ancient road at the time. Yeah. But these guys were silent, there's no no sound at all. I'm not saying a legion isn't like masses of people, but it was a group of people. Yeah. Probably roughly the same amount of people as we saw.

Interesting. It is, it is, it is.

Well, my story to kick off today is from Dundee, uh, or or just outside Dundee, and it's uh it's an interesting one. It was first reported by the Society for Psychical Research, uh, you know, when it was first brought to the public's attention, thought to be a time slip, and the witness potentially stumbled across the aftermath of a battle, and uh the battle, and I and again I apologize if I'm massacring these names, Dun Nectane, which was fought between the Northumbrian King Egfrith and the Picts, led by King Bridy McBilly, I think the name was. It supposedly took place on the 20th of March 685 AD at Dune, which is in Angus, and it was related to the SPR by a guy called Dr. James McCarg of Dundee. And he described in the story the the incident witnessed by a Miss E. F. Smith of Latham in Dundee, who sat and recounted her experience to him basically. The date between her experience and the battle, believe it or not, was estimated to be 1,265 years had elapsed between the battle and what she'd seen in 1950. And she was interviewed in 1971 by a clinical psychologist and people from the university. You know, because it's a story she told a few times. I think she passed away soon after, but in 1950, being a much uh younger woman, she'd been out at a cocktail party.

Very nice.

I know, at very civilized times. So this is 7th of January, winter time.

That's my birthday.

Is it? Oh, well, that's when it happened.

Not that old, but well, I know, I know.

For the car skidded, you see, on the way home, uh, and it went into a ditch, which left her, you know, the option of lying in the car in the middle of nowhere or walking home, which was an eight-mile walk.

Yeah.

And she had a dog with her. So for two of those miles, she was forced to carry her dog.

Oh, we think I won't carry my dog. Yeah, I know. So I wouldn't they're big dogs, uh, won't carry them very far.

Well, I'm sure hers wasn't a wolf hound, but I could be wrong. But after a couple of miles, the dog was put down and um she was approaching some woodland. So this is kind of the route she normally took, so it's not like you know she's going anywhere she didn't know. But she said an unaccountable nervousness came over her. So veering to the right, she walked on but began to see torches in the distance. Walking on, she then found herself witness to the sight of an oddly dressed man sprawled across the grass. Oh so with nowhere to go, she's now found herself in the midst of a tableau. I like that word tableau. Tableau tableau. Tableau. A wee gathering of people. Okay. And uh she continued her journey, but she the what I find quite amusing with this, she's very stoic. She just kind of went ahead with it. You know, I would have been like, I think I'll turn round and head back. But she kept going. Uh but she noticed that nobody was paying her any attention. So what else was going on around her? She was just walking between it all, they weren't playing a blind bit of attention, but there were slain warriors everywhere, and others appeared to walk amongst them, stooping occasionally, turning them on their back to their fronts to inspect them. And many of the people that were inspecting were holding torches, which he later described as being bright red, as in the wood colour. So these were thought to have been fashioned by Scots fur. So it was exclusively visual, and during her progress, no sound or smells were detective, and the men she later accounted wore what appeared to be long tights, dark in colour, at which at certain points there were rolls of material, which actually antiquarians describe as matching the outfit that Pictish warriors would have worn. It was later found two years prior to her experience, a doctor, F. T. Wainwright, head of the Department of History at Queen's College Dundee, had produced a paper on the battle, and according to him, her descriptions were absolutely accurate. Later, some suggested she'd somehow subconsciously seen his paper, to which he answered, I had not seen it before I saw this. Somebody gave it to me afterwards to read, but I merely told him I was one up on him. And that's what happened. Um she eventually got home, but she walked through the battle and it was completely nervous. Hundreds of people apparently just doing about their thing. So the academics, of course, could not at all fathom how this woman, who was not an academic and knew nothing of the battle, had given such vivid descriptions.

Yeah.

And she's maintained her story right to the end.

Yeah, so she was there. And again, is it a case that she's gone backwards or have they come forwards? You don't know. Yeah, okay, that's a good one. Right, so my next one is a haunted road. Time slip on a road. It's the A21.

Yes.

Uh, which runs from Lewisham in south east London to Hastings. So it's a bit of a long road.

That's a long road there, yeah.

And it passes through Seven Oaks, Tunbridge, Purbury, Tunbridge Wells, and the Kent and Sussex Wild. So it's paranormal reputation centres mainly around the Seven Oaks Borough Pass and the area around the old gracious lane. The story contains a few named witnesses, exact dates, and accessible contemporary police reports. So they say, No, well, there's no evidence there.

Yeah.

So there's two principal legends to the Phantom Road and the White-Haired Woman, apparently. A possible ghost nun appears in the small number of the modern retellings, but remains unverified. So, yeah, so there's a lot going on in this road. So the phenomenon is associated, as I say, with the bypass and reportedly occurs close to where the modern jewel carriageway crosses old Gracious Lane, and Gracious Lane exists before the bypass was constructed, and the new road divided or subsequently alters the old route. A bridge now carries Gracious Lane across the A21. So, yeah, so what happens is that when motorists travel towards the Gracious Lane bridge, the familiar A21 carriageway suddenly appears to disappear. A different road or slip road seems to replace it. False road appears to curve or leads towards the right. Drivers believe it's a genuine continuation of the road or a legitimate exit. So following it would direct the vehicles towards the central reservation opposite the carriageway or another dangerous part of the junction. Phantom route disappears when the driver corrects course or looks away. It's a bit of a weird thing.

Yeah, I mean that's literally a ghost road. It is, isn't it?

Yeah, so later claims attached to the stories that more than one motorist have said to experience this phenomena. At least one driver leisurely narrowly avoided a serious collision. Some articles blame photo accidents or drivers following the false route. The operation is said to be more noticeable at night or in pure weather. So I had a quick look to see if there's any deaths or anything. I couldn't find anything at all.

Right, okay.

But yeah, it also says that the old lane also has the older ghosties on it as well. Yeah, so the former road has left an impression that replays like a recording. So it's a good like proper like time slip there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, bit of a dangerous one. Yeah, most of them are usually, you know, not like that. But yeah, but as I said, there's uh there's a white-haired lady apparently ported there. She's described as elderly, wears a fawn or tan or brown coat, stands or walks directly in the carriageway. She appears completely solid and looks like a living pedestrian. Drivers react as if they believe it's a real person. Um, and as usual, people see the woman too late to stop safely. So it's a typical one where uh they they hit hit them and think then get out and they think there's no one there. Yeah. So that's a that's a good road. No, it's not a good road because obviously it tries to kill people. It's a naughty road. It's a naughty road.

It's a road to hell. Uh maybe not hell.

That's the wrong road.

Terrible though, isn't it?

God.

Yeah, that's that's a big thing.

What are these ghosts trying to do to us?

What are they trying to do? They're trying to make us ghosts, that's what they're trying to do.

They are. They need more. We need more in the ghosty world. Yes.

So that's my story of the ghost road.

Well, I've got another ghost road one. We sort of start off with a bit of a ghosty roadie thing, then we got a time slippy thing. So it's a devil a time slip story, isn't it? It's a bit ghosty roadie to begin with. So this one is reckoned to be the most haunted mm potentially in Britain.

Oh. Not Britain. That is a big boast.

Yes. A73 Kinmount Strait or Ghost Road. Why it's so haunted remains unanswered, but numerous witnesses have described a wide range of apparitions for decades, and these have included sightings of figures on horseback, an eyeless hag, a man carrying a musket, a white lady crossing the road near Kinmount House, and a Roman legion.

There's a lot there. Did you say an eyeless hag?

An eyeless hag I did say an eyeless hag, yes. Not Irish hag, eyeless.

Eyeless, eyeless.

Eyeless, no eyes.

And she had no eyes.

Yeah.

Well, it could be worse, she could be nomless. Or legless.

Or legless. Well, actually, speaking of legless, the Roman legion are actually seen only from the knee up again. So there you go. Same old thing. But most recent sightings have included that of an elderly man dressed in a tweed cap standing beside a bus stop, and when people approach him he's seen to vanish. So it is an impressive roster of stories. In a recent interview with a local, this gentleman described several contemporary sightings. The gentleman in question was called Bob Sturgeon and conveniently lived near the road. And he had up till that time, which was fairly recently, this is about five or six years ago, owned a roadside snack van at Cruthers Town, which is near the haunted hotspot. He stated there was really a week went by without somebody telling me about the experience they'd had, usually along the Kinmount Strait, and his van became described as a refuge for those who had parked overnight in nearby laid bys who'd had bad experiences. So it was quite popular along distance lorry drivers, and appeared that many would be keen to get things off their chest, having had harrowing experiences. He also stated that drivers were not the kind of people to share these stories or invent things. So one of those calming sightings, according to Mr Sturgeon, was the appearance of groups of dejected and bedraggled people carrying bundles, pulling carts like medieval camp followers. He further stated one man was so shocked that he gave up lorry driving altogether, and I never saw him again. It was by all accounts a terrifying experience. Someone else said by boy waking at three in the morning while parked there in their van, noticed a parade of people passing by which went on for ages, and afterwards he was described as just being frozen and an awful state, so it affected him really badly what he saw. Further horrifying reports include those from the Millers who were driving home on the A75 when a figure suddenly appeared in the road ahead of them, which was described as a man with a Hessian sack, and the figure held a rag in his hand. They were terrified and drove off. Again, a similar tale, and this time was another driver, saw a similar figure step out in front of the car and instinctively slammed on the brakes which vanished on impact, which is you know a fairly common thing. So it made the headlines in 1997 after a subsequent police search revealed that nothing had could be seen because they were called out to do the instant. But perhaps the most infamous story, and it's one I do remember as a kid, and I absolutely freaked me out, was from the same uh same area, and it was first documented in a book by the famous researcher Peter Underwood. And a lot of people will know this book, it's called A Gazetteer of Scottish Ghosts. I have it through the house as I speak, and uh it's it's actually been in the public domain for years, this story. So check it out. It took place in April 1962 on the same stretch of road between Dumfries and Annan, and it involved two brothers, Derek, who was 22 at the time, and his 14 year old brother Norman, who afterwards recounted a terrifying experience. So the journey up till then had been uneventful, but as midnight approached, they found themselves on that infamous stretch of road when from out of nowhere they The pair were startled by the appearance of a large hen. A hen a hen which flew at the car before disappearing at the point of impact. So barely recovering from the shock, they were then taken aback by the sight of a woman wearing rags who ran towards them with outstretched hands, her face contorted angrily, and again at the point of impact she vanished. The brothers were then subjected to a stream of spectral figures lunging at them from the dark that caused them to break frequently, and according to testimony, they spent the next half hour trying to avoid hitting a multitude of figures. They described uh people uh pulling carts, they described people in rags, people in despair, cattle. It went on and on. The ghostly retinue also had various phantom animals, which included horses, again more chickens and goats. All quite clearly seen, all coming towards the car, then vanishing. And eventually the driver became aware of the taillights of a truck just ahead of them, and though much relieved to see something tangible, realized that a collision was now inevitable. And so, unable to apply the brakes properly, he warned his brother to brace himself at the worst, put his foot down on the floor, and then they struck the van. But it two disappeared. So slamming on the brakes, the pair then sat in shock for some time before they were able to continue their journey and came back and recounted their story. Terrifying, um they never had any belief in the supernatural, they never experienced it again like it. But I have to wonder that the van in front could it have been a ghost van that had seen the spectral figures and wasn't able to stop in time and crashed. Because they were falling in. Interesting story. Interesting the fact that there was uh you know a multitude of people and animals, and obviously it was sort of replay of some description from the past, what it is. Yeah. Who knows?

Sounds like there was a lot going on there. A lot going on there, yeah, they would have been fine that yeah, probably goats and terrifying.

Yeah, it might not have been an egg. But anyway, let's not dwell. Yeah, I've never been on that road ever, and I've I've always been kind of curious to what it's like. I know there's been so many stories about it, and I mean it's not just them, but uh who knows? Maybe one day I may go down there and have a look. Indeed.

It's probably just gonna look like anything else, but never mind. Yeah, so has there been anything recently on that road then?

Well, last the last time was that guy, the the guy who owned the canteen, and that was about like say not that long ago, maybe 15, 10, 15 years ago. In fact, it's probably less than that. It's probably like five years ago, I suppose. It was in the newspapers at the time, and I did go and look to him, and he was he was on a few websites he popped up and uh he was quite keen to he he quit his he quit his job apart. I don't know if he quit his job selling you know flipping burgers at the side of the road because of it. But um he did he did quit the job, but he did have a business there for many years. And his regulars would come in and go and tell him you know, very similar stuff then, really.

So there you go. Well, we got another army in my next one.

What's that one?

Got another army, another army tricky. Yes, so um we're going back to the English Civil War Edgehill in Warwickshire.

Yeah.

Um so Edgehill lies between Banbury and Stratford-upon Avon, and was the site of the first major battle of English Civil War fought on the 23rd of October 1642. Uh the battle marked the beginning of the conflict between the Royalists led by King Charles I. I nearly slipped and said King Charles III, but so many of them.

One could barely keep up.

And the Parliament under the Earl of Essex. So around 30,000 men took part in the battle with 3,000 casualties. So it was at about 10%.

Yeah.

That's good with maths, but not usually that quick.

That's very good. I'm impressed.

Although technically indecisive out of a demonstration that the civil war would be long and brutal. And today the battlefield is a peaceful farmland, but the centuries have been associated with stories of ghostly armies and unexplained sightings. So the English Civil War was one of the bloodiest conflicts fought on British soil. Families were divided, neighbours fought neighbours, and the battlefield at Edge Hill was left strewn with bodies after the fighting end. Many soldiers were buried hastily where they fell. And people living nearby, the memory of the battle remained vivid long after the armies had departed. And it's only weeks later that strange reports started to emerge. So this is quite an old one. So the sightings are going back since the 1600s.

That's interesting. Especially since it was like literally well, contemporary, like literally contemporary at the time.

Yeah, so unlike many of the stories involving signal witnesses, this is encountered by a large number of people. Yeah. Said to have witnessed the phenomenon were the local villagers, travellers, shepherds, and former soldiers. And according to later accounts, the records became so widespread that it reached the ears of King Charles I himself. So the full story says around Christmas 1642, approximately two months after the battle, people living near Edge Hill claimed that they could once again hear the sounds of war. At first it was distant. The unmistakable beat of a military drum. Then came the trumpets, and soon after was the sounds of cannon fire. People rushed outside expecting another battle with taking place, but instead they reported something extraordinary. So across the battlefield appeared hundreds of soldiers, entire regiments marching in formation. Cavalry charged across the fields, infantry exchanged musket fire, cannons discharged, and the officers shouted orders. So witnesses described seeing banners flying above the troops, and some even claim they recognized the officers who had been killed during the original battle only weeks earlier. So the fighting appeared completely real, and the soldiers looked solid as well, and apparently horses galloped across the landscape as well. And there were even smoke drifting over the fields. So it caught the ears of King Charles I, and he took the reports very seriously. And according to tradition, he sent officers to investigate the sightings. Investigators reportedly witnessed similar phenomena themselves. Some versions of stories even claim that they recognize the fellow officers who had died during the battle. So yeah, it's very strange. And later reports stories of the ghostly armies uh continued well into the 18th and 19th century. Uh where travellers occasionally claim to hear marching soldiers, distant drums, cavalry, and shouting across the field. So it's interesting to see whether I mean it's a field now, but whether they actually see in the field now where it's all like calmed out.

And also the fact that they heard things because there is a few incidents that I've got of you know, I've read about that people witnessed battles when there was no sound, which made it kind of weird because obviously there was a lot of people involved. You could see like smoke from cannon or guns, horses charging, but utter silence.

Um the fact that they actually recognise some of the officers as well.

So yes, that's uh I I knew a guy uh years ago and he had a really weird experience actually in Aberdeen, uh, and obviously it's a much smaller scale, but he was walking uh through old Aberdeen, which is the university part of the city. Uh I think he was heading, if I remember correctly, to Tilly Drone, which is kind of like a housing estate just behind it. And uh as he's approaching King's College, it's you know a university building, it's got a big sort of grass area at the front with a monument to the Bishop Elphinston in the front. So, you know, and then the university sit back and it's you know an ancient building. He said he saw two guys fighting with swords there and um musketeer type clothing is what he described it as. But they were totally unaware of him, but when the hor the swords were striking each other there was no sound. And it was weird, he says they were kind of they're solid, but there's like like weird, I don't know, it's hard to describe like a the the outline of them was slightly blurry at the same time. Yeah. So he's just sat a watch and just kept walking as you do. As you do. But uh yeah, that was weird. And then of course somebody said, Oh, but it would kind of be students from me, you know, the the fencing society. Well, they didn't look like normal people, put it that way. Um so I don't know, it's it's strange.

Yeah, very weird. So that's a good old time slip, though. Yeah, it was a time slip. Hope you enjoyed that episode. Our next episode, we continue on with haunted time slips. In the meantime, we keep the lights on, still scared.

I keep the hallway light on, but the shadows never fade. Every corner whisper secret, so the choice is that I made there's a tapping at the window, though the wind is standing still, and a chill runs down my spine like something moving at its will. I tell myself it's nothing, just a crazy floor, a lovely side of the sun.