Episode 7 Into Edinburgh's Darkness with Special Guest John Tantalon

Something in the top remembers me.

Hello everyone, welcome back to Lights on Still Scared. My name is Graham Milne and I'm with my esteemed colleague Karen Swanson. And today, something slightly different, today we've got a guest speaking to us today, and his name is John Tantalon. Now, John Tantalon and I have known each other for a number of years, and we're part of a collective called PSI. We're an investigative group, but we don't we know we sporadically investigate, but we're not we don't do it every weekend. We've got other things to do in our lives, but we know each other pretty well. John is a fantastic storyteller and has written several books and uh does many great things in the paranormal field, so he's probably well known to a lot of people. So we're very glad to have him here this afternoon. So welcome John and how you been?

Not bad, been um busy as ever, and of course enjoying this wonderful rare sunshine this heat for Edinburgh. Uh but we've been good, it's not bad.

Yes, I must point out, guys, the weather is very hot today.

It's extremely hot. However, I would point out that it'll be hotter down south than up here.

It's always the case. Um so yeah, John, we we've known each other for a number of years. Um and obviously you've born and bred in Edinburgh, and you formed uh well, what I would describe North Ember Nightmares. Was was it a pod would you describe it as a podcast thing, a filmmaking thing?

Well, North Ember Nightmares was um originally a book. It was a book of um lesser known stories from the north of the city. My grandfather um was a trawlerman down there and I grew up in the area, yeah. And over the the years have uh you know culminated uh you know quite a lot of interest in stories. So the first book was putting them you know to paper, getting them out, and we had the idea of um putting together like a like a like a not a podcast, but a series of um series of sort of videos on YouTube. And we ended up doing 30 by the end, and you know, they were covering some of the stories from there. Then we ventured out, we ended up doing some from about Portobello, about South Queens Ferry, did uh a section on Leith. Um and you know, different themes, you know. We had one all about the haunted pubs, that was called uh Wine Zales and Restless Spirits. We did one about the theatres and cinemas of the city, that was called Terror in the Back Row, I think. Um so yeah, I mean we did that, and basically when we started doing our ghost walks full time, we uh we just ran out of time to film every month.

Yeah, yeah.

So 30 was the the kind of number we reached.

It's uh it's a big ask, I'm sure. And I mean they they look great, but I can imagine we'd consuming time be a bit of a a bit of a bit of a nightmare, as it were. Yeah. But isn't Ember the perfect place for for ghost stories, don't you think?

It certainly is. I mean, I think that if all the ghosts come out, there won't be enough room for us living.

That's very true. That's very true. Um we're actually sitting here in a place called Nidry Street, which is reckoning one of the most haunted uh streets in in Scotland. Uh in fact, next door's a pub called the Banshee Labyrinth, which we've all we've all been involved in the Banshee Labyrinth. Yes, drinking and uh you know working, obviously, but uh drinking mainly I might add, but uh it's an interesting place. Um so John, if you don't mind, can I ask you? We've just been doing um a little section on uh castles and palaces of Scotland, haunted castles. I know you've got a fantastic ghost story concerning a castle, personal experience from Craigrook Castle, right? Would you mind telling us about that?

Certainly, yeah. You know, a lot of people will say to me over the years, you know, that come on the walks and you know, have you know, had me on shows and stuff, they say, you know, God, you're doing this a long time. You must have seen loads of ghosts, must have had loads of paranormal encounters. I says, Frankly, no. Says, yeah, I couldn't really say until 2014. There was a friend of mine who worked for a security company, and he was offered a bit of overtime one weekend looking after a building that they they had called Craig Crook Castle. Now it's up at Black Hall, it's um, you know, a wonderful, you know, I can't remember how many years I always say always go with 500, but it's an old castle, and they were it was up for sale, and it was going to be purchased for six million pounds by the actor Gerard Butler. So this was a big deal to them. They says, We can't have anyone breaking in, anything going wrong with us, so we need somebody there for the full shift. He says, Yeah, no worries. Now, Peter had you know kind of been a bouncer in the cowgate and stuff, you know. He was he was from Warsaw, and you know, he you know, he kind of knew his stuff. And he says, Yeah, no worries, we'll do that. So he went in on his own, he was the only one with the key for the place, and all he had to do was every hour walk round the castle, and you know, he could just sit downstairs and watch his laptop or whatever. But incidentally, there was no power in the building, it was just like the wee bothy downstairs where they had a generator, and he went round, walked about the place. This is amazing, you a castle at myself. Came down, poured himself a cup of tea, and closed the drawer in front of him. Went round an hour later, another part of this wonderful castle, sat down, says time for a sandwich, shut the drawer, opened his laptop. Six times he went round doing the walkthrough and he thought, Who's opening the drawer? Says every time I come back, he says, There's no one here. I'm the only one with a key, and something's opening the drawer. So um the shift passed, and um he said to me, So you're into some stuff like that. What do you make of all this? And he said, If I get the keys again, do you want to look at this place? I says, Yeah, that'd be great. So it was the spring of 2014, and um he collected me from work after a shift about 11 o'clock at night. We went in, you know, took some pictures. Um it was wonderful. There was no spooky vibe or anything, but it was just really cool to see. Um went round the castle and about three o'clock when I went home. Sometime later he got in touch in the autumn. He said, uh, we're handing the keys back. It's fell through Gerard, but there's no buying it anymore. Says, um, do you want to see it one last time? I says, Oh yeah. So I was on night shift. I jumped in my car about 2, 3 in the morning or something and went over. And um, in my break, incidentally, I wasn't sciving. And uh went up the path, past the gatehouse, went in, and Peter said, Do you want to uh have a cup of tea or do you want to do the walk round first? She said, No, we'll do the walk round, it'd be nice to see the place. So we went up to the first floor, walked along with our torches, nothing at all. Up to the second floor. And the next thing that happened, folks, was a door opened entirely by itself. Slowly, I said to Peter, don't panic, that could be a floorboard or anything. You know, obviously it's three in the morning, you're you know, in a bit of a spooky place with no lights. And we're walking along the second floor, next thing there's a big brass doorknob that falls off directly in front of me, just like that. Woof. And at that exact point, behind Peter, a door slammed with all its might, and it was a big bouquet went past the two of us like a scent. And at that point, we ran for our life. I recall being downstairs. Peter's got the kettle, he's scrabbling about it. Says, Leave that, I'm not staying another minute. You can ram your tea. And he said, I'm coming with you, I'm not staying here on my own. Uh so that was it. I mean, we we did a bit of digging. It turns out it's famously haunted, yeah. By a guy called Lord Francis Jeffrey, he owned it.

That's right, the hanging judge. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

And there was a company hired the outhouses in the 80s. They were uh either a publishers or they were uh like a paper manufacturer, something like that. And they had lots of recorded events of things getting thrown at them and the likes. Um as far as I know, it's still unoccupied. I mean, somebody's taken over the outhouses as a care home.

Yeah.

But I don't think anyone's in the castle itself.

Ah, that's wild, because I actually saw the uh I saw it online recently, uh, and I was I was looking enviously at the rooms, thinking, ah, that'd be great. Wouldn't that be great? But yeah, with the paper, the paper firm or whatever it was, there was uh if I remember spoken like paperclips thrown at them and stuff, but like physically hurt by something. Interesting story. So but isn't it funny? We all we all have spent so many t months, years of our lives trying to find you know some sort of truth or find evidence and how how sporadic it is. It's you know, it's we we we never get too much, you get the weak crumb now and then, but it keeps you going, doesn't it? It keeps you going. But that's a really interesting story. It was, it was uh a game changer. I feel I feel quite envious actually. Ghost envies or such a thing.

Have you not had any? You've had loads of stuff.

I think I mean I but it'd be fair. John, remember we me and John um got the opportunity to look uh in the basement of um what was it, the Royal Oak pub. Yeah, we're doing a talk, and we we were done there basically because it was the back door, you know, in case something happened to get so we were let's shuffle about there. Really interesting because it was part of the you know the Sidbread tunnel uh vault system.

Uh huh.

Yeah, but remember when I when you went away to get the torch and I I had that freak out experience. It was quite funny. And there's me who's really interested in these things, but John had gone to get a torch just around the corner or something, and I was in this big, it was bloody huge tunnel. And honestly, God, I was a I swear there's a guy coming right behind this black figure, and I I I nearly had a I nearly had a heart attack, shall we say? I was gonna see something else. It was one of those moments, and then I thought afterwards, I'm ashamed of myself. Why was I cool and collected? But um I usually don't get freaked out, but that was one time I was definitely have you ever felt like that? Freaked out or about anything that was being like that.

The only time where I've actually thought this is really freaky and I really didn't like it, was that time at Usher Hall when I I went to I was at a concert, it was erasure. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So um nothing you do with M film assume. Yeah, and I I think uh I think I have mentioned this one before where um I was in the toilets because it's halfway through the concert, so it's completely empty, there was no one around, and I was washing my hands and they've got those brass door handles, yeah, and it started to move. And it's like felt like someone was trying to get in, but they couldn't. And the more it I was ignoring them, the more it was trying to jingle. So I thought, oh for God's saying, you know, I don't know how she do. As I grabbed it, it was still moving, and when I opened it, there was no one there. Now I that's made me feel a little bit free to laugh. And I was at the Usher Hall on Sunday, and I thought, there's no way I'm going to the ladies on my own. I'll just stay through the concert, I'll watch it all the way through without leaving my seat.

Haunted toilets, man, they're a nightmare.

I know.

The Usher Hall is uh I mean, surprise, I've never heard a story from the Usher Hall, but right next door to it, the Lyceum has an interesting story. It's um reputedly haunted by Dame Helen Terry. Yeah. Who uh, you know, um she was all over the place back in the day. She, you know, she was but I reckon the reason she's fed up for this place is they had like an effigy of her when you went in. They had all these kind of um statues. What do you call it? Plastic. Yeah, yeah. And during World War II there was a shortage of chalk, so they they smashed hers, and but the head remained just rolled around for years. So I reckon because of that undignified ending, she's not very happy. And she still hangs about the Lyceum.

Perhaps she like peeks through the walls and goes to the archery. Oh, but why she wanted to spook me halfway through an erasure concert? I don't know.

I didn't even know she liked Erasure. I thought she was the Peshmode fan or something. I don't know.

Perhaps that's the reason why she ordered, because she didn't like Erasure, but there you go. It was it was quite a few years ago now. So that would be funny. Yeah.

But it is well when these things happen. Um yeah, I mean, you can't we kind of live in hope. Um what what would you think, John? Your first if you were if somebody's to say to you, like, what what would be the best piece of evidence for for you? Would it be a photograph of personal experience, or what do you think? Just as as somebody who's really interested in this whole subject.

Um I'd I'd probably I mean, hands down, say the you know, the carry on at that Craig's Root Castle was yeah by far the most genuine. Yeah, we've had other things where we've done investigations. We were at uh that one you're talking about with the you know the the Royal Oak, which is I mean it's yeah, it is like the it's part of the vaults. I mean it's vast. I mean it's they they just they're not interested in using it for anything, it's just storage for yeah. But we were down there and we picked up a a voice in the monitor and it it was Bill, it was a very clear Bill. And um, when we were speaking to the manager, we told her our findings, and she says, All I can think of is we're a chap used to drink here called Bill, I'm not gonna say his name, there's a picture, a painting of him in the bar. And he died very suddenly on his way there, uh, had a heart attack. And where we picked up the name, we were standing right next to his double bass that he never collected because he passed, and yeah, I thought that was quite uh full of that was interesting, actually. We also did one at um in Chouse, didn't we? Yes, and we picked up an audio of a guy with a very clear American voice, and it's a good night, baby.

That's correct, that was a really obvious, and I I mean some a lot of these recordings tend to be a bit kind of ambiguous, but it's a definite, clear we were we were like kind of wow, you know. But that's true. Yeah, and what was the connection? Was it not used by soldiers or some of the casts?

We um we looked into that and we we c we weren't weren't sure if it was occupied with GIs during World War II. Do you know what it was one of those things I was gonna look further into, but we we went on to the next project.

We did, there's always something else. Very and part of it was ruined, which was even more that was the I thought the ruined bit was wild. Yeah. We got in there. I mean, we we just sort of look around, but it was it was weirdly mixture of Victorian and what looked like sort of more modern parts, but it was very, very creepy.

Yeah.

And there was this huge the bit that you know what I'm gonna see here, there was this huge pile of paper on the floor that had been uh chewed up by mice. So a bit was like it was like a humongous pile of chewed up paper. If you can imagine like a gerbil chewing all paper up in a cage, bit big, about four feet wide and very tall. And we were marveling, we thought, God, look at this, this is insane. It was like a sculpture, and right in the middle of it all was a tiny ripped piece of paper, slightly bigger than the rest, that had Benedict Cumberbatch's face on it. And I thought that was far out. That's really wild. I thought that was I don't know how that came about, but anyway, I'm going off track here. Um, that was pretty cool.

It's allowed, but that was a good one. And Kerry, uh Kerry um claimed that something pushed her when she was standing next to that bizarre gate with steps going nowhere. Yeah. And she did, she swore out loud, didn't she? Uh, and says, What you know is that someone grabbed her or pushed her.

There's a kind of undercroft or an undercroft, what you call it, like a vault that's ancient, and there's a tiny, really stone, like a tiny stone staircase that leads up. It's a very old part of the building. And apparently, when it was a school, if you went up the steps, there was a hatch and you could push it and you'd turn it. It was the headmaster's room or something. That's right, yeah. Very peculiar layout. So I don't know who on earth would have gone up these steps, but very, very rustic to say the least. Um, yeah, it was interesting. So, um, John, have you got a wee story for us? Cassio, we ghost story to um a wee favourite of yours. You've got anything you'd like to do?

Yeah, certainly. Well, we do sort of ghostwalks all around the city, you know. We do one down in Wardy Bay where I'm from, do one in Leith, one in Porty, do one at Cramond. And of course we do one in the old town too. But one of my one of my favourites for Leith, I'm sure you'll appreciate if you're from Leith. Lived in Leith for a few years, yeah. Is um in the docks. You know, um it's it's very changed now. They've got the trams down there, they've got new buildings and stuff. And um I was waiting on a ghostwalk coming, and I thought, I never realised how close we were to a building. And there was a fellow who was a painter and decorator told me this story, and he was uh working overtime in the docks in a place called Brodero Shaw House. Now, Bradero Shaw was the company in the 1980s that would import the massive you know iron pipes to Scandinavia. I mean, it was a big um big, you know, kind of job for everyone then. And um they says, Will you come in and give the place a lick of paint, just whenever you want, you know, come in after your work. He says, I know what he's. So it was a midnight on a Friday night, and he's in there on his own. He's painting away, and he hears the security guard couple, here's a door, and he says, That'll be the security guard. He says, Great, I'll get a cup of tea. He said, I'll be down there now, pal, two seconds. Can you hear him walking around the building? And he's coming up the stairs, and he says, Oh, you know, he's not far away. And he he went back down the stairs, he says, What a cheek! He's not even said hello. And he went down and the door had physically opened. He went outside for a look, and he said, Where's he gone? And there was nothing. There was no sound of a car, there was no smell of exhaust rooms, there was no sound of footsteps, there was just the seagulls flying around. He thought, Where on earth did he go? So the next morning, speaking to his wife, because that was the strangest thing with the security guard, popped in, never said a word, and he vanished before my eyes. And um his wife said, Oh, she says, I know who you mean. That's a security guard, that's not the security guard. She said, I've been cleaning in there before, and we've all seen him. He died in 1985. She said his name, I'm not going to repeat his name because it's not because he's like the candy man he's going to appear, but it's just quite an odd name.

Yeah.

And um she says that it's like his eyes watching you. Me and the girls have been in cleaning, and he's been like in the corner just keeping an eye on us. So he was the security guard there in 1985. And he was one of the highest paid guys in the docks because he did all the overtime going. He never had much of a life. He just liked to go and see Hibs. Lived with his old mum and drank whiskey. But he had a temper and a half this character. There was on one occasion somebody was winding him up about Hibs getting beat for a change, and um he uh picked up a still saw and ripped it right down the front of the guy's um overalls, and says, Next thing I'd be your face, says Didny be wide, and that was the sort of mentality this guy had when he was alive. God knows what he'd be like in death, and he's still doing his patrols around there now.

That's creepy. Because we were talking about how earlier on about how what we're talking about palaces and castles and how various ghosts, like you know, executed queens and balloon and all this kind of stuff, um has been seen in so many buildings because of an uh you know a traumatic experience. But likewise, I suppose if somebody's had a uh attached a building because maybe that's all they've got, or they're you know, and and so they feel obliged to just you know, if they're here in spirit, I mean they might just be a recording, but I find that really interesting. Yeah, but imagine being chained your work forevermore. Oh God help us, you know. I feel like I'm sometimes. Yeah, well, yeah, I know. I think that's why you everybody should have a hobby, at least because how keep your options open.

I mean, where I where I used to work in my in my mugle life, I worked in a solicitor's, and apparently one few years back, one of the typists died at her desk, and apparently she haunted the the office. I mean, I can't think of anything worse than typing for the rest of your eternity.

Phantom tapping. I know. I uh talking about like you know, you can't get away from your work. I was speaking to uh a chap one time and he had a wee story for me, and he's a bus driver, and he uh he said that you know, um they were cycling down the railway path down at Trinity, him and his wife and daughter, and this sort of older man walked past them and just vanished through the railway bridge, just walked clear through the wall, and they nearly fell off the bike. And I say, That's a cracker, Davy. But he said, Oh, that's nothing. He says, What about this? There's a guy I work with, he's been on the buses for a long time, and he's always off on the sick because he's psychic and he can see the spirits on the bus. And he says it stresses him out so much. Imagine that going to a tribunal, you know, proving that. Yeah, I know, exactly. But he says it all started in the eighties, and he was on a bus at Claremont, and there was a couple of an Arami upstairs, and he looked through the periscope to tell them off, and he just saw a face looking out. And that's when it started. He's seen them time and time again. People sitting on the bus. And it turns out it's actually quite common. There was a story from Manchester back in the day, and you know, the people saw a guy, you know, getting hit by a bus when there was no bus there. And it turns out somebody got a Dear John letter back in World War II and he was hit by a tram. Right. And they've changed the road layout a bit, but it's the same bit where the tram would have been. And also after the terrible tragedy, the tsunami of Fouquet Thailand, there was multiple reports of taxi drivers picking up fares and taking them to the airport, Americans. When they got there, there were nobody there. They were trying to get home after dying in the tsunami. So there's quite a lot of that people, you know, picking up passengers.

But the bus one was pretty spooky, you know. I think it's one outside the Kinghorn Hotel as well in Fife, which is kind of similar. Um, but there's been it's that sporadic. I mean, I know in the 1950s there's a few reports in the 70s mainly. In recent times, I'm not so sure, but certainly one of the customers back about 1970 came into the bar really petrified. They've been waiting for the bus to come along. It was quite a dark night, so when they're standing there, you know, there's no streetlights or nothing really, just the hotel. And they can see, you know, the cars quite beams full on, it's quite bright in their eyes. And he feels somebody behind him, and he kind of looks to the side, and there's a woman just like literally beside him, but really close, you know, like kind of invasion of space, close. He was wicking a girl, and she was described as wearing, you know, a sort of gabardine type coat kind of thing and all this. And he was willing to make small talks. He felt this is weird. The wounds like here, and I've got to say, someone like you know, good evening, or something. He turned her in, she'd gone. And uh turns out the same moon being seen by a few bus drivers getting on the bus, sometimes at the opposite side of the road, and uh typically like the stories are uh when the person's gone in and somebody went upstairs to collect the fare because they were only person on the bus, nobody, but the clippy and the person driving saw this happen. So I don't know, it's a weird thing about transport and ghosts, isn't there?

Yeah, it certainly is. There was there's one in the new book, Shameless Plug.

No, yes, John, because I was gonna ask me that. What is the title of your new book?

Say Lothian Region Terror Tales, right? And basically what we did with this book was put a like a compass in the middle of Edinburgh. You know, circle, we're gonna find stories about it. And we did, and one of them was that a lady got in touch with me, you know, I think she was maybe coming on a ghost walk, or she'd been on one, and then she was talking about Cramond. We do, you know, walk down there, and she says, You might think I'm daft, but what do you think of this one? She says, Back in the 80s, my then fiancee, 84 it was, now my husband, and I were on his motorbike going past Loriston Castle, and they're going down the long road down to the bottom, and you turn, there's like a big white gate, it's a mushroom farm now or something. Right, and they turn there, and he says he stopped, he slowed down because there was a woman crossing the road. Now, this will show your age if you get this one. Uh, she looked like the woman off the Scottish widow's advent. Oh, aye, aye. Long dark cloak, strolling across floating across the road. Yeah, yeah. But there's nothing there, and she just vanished, and it and they continued, and they got down to Cramon Village into the Cramon Inn, and um she said to her husband, What did you hang? That was he meant, did you see it as well? My god, he says that was spooky, but he wasn't going to say a word, but she saw it too, and she says, I feel getting that off my chest was necessary, you know.

Oh wild, never talked about in such a long time, but you know Scottish widows, right? This is this is a fun fact, folks. Scottish widows, the cape used in the Scottish widows advert is in the museum on the mound, which is the Museum of Banking, yes, which was oh was it Roger Mur's daughter? Was really I think she was the she was a Scottish widow, yeah. I think it was her. Anyway, she's hanging about cramming now. Good. What about so I was gonna ask John the book? What where can we get where can we get the book?

The book is available from um a nice shop in Leith called The Portal.

Uh-huh.

You can get it online on Amazon or from Sabre Press, which is our own wee company we do uh we release books on, and that's on our North Edinburgh Nightmares website. Um so yes, there's a few places, a few other shops sell it as well, Scottish Storytelling Centre and the likes. But uh yeah, it's but it's been good, it's been well received so far, and it's got a bit of everything. I mean, so we we did um a lot of people's recollections that have been on Ghostwalks have told us stories, personal ones. We did that, and there's some really interesting ones on there. There's uh a chapter all about you know the East and West Lothian over in the East Nook of Fife, you know, down towards uh Peables and the you know the borders. So there's a bit of everything, and we came across some really interesting stories, um some good ones.

Oh, I was gonna ask actually uh John stayed in a haunted hotel very recently called The Cross Keys. Is that called a very famous haunted hotel? Yes, I've heard of that's those day what part of the god forgot the you know the good those great ghost investigators from the 70s, the Dami Tavall. Yeah, yeah, Lorine and Warren, yes, that's right. Governmental block there. Um they actually apparently uh visited Scotland and wrote about the cross keys and said it was the most it was a gateway to hell. They said what they said was the most speaking police ever. Wow. Uh I spoke I mean I've spoken to a full few folk that have worked there, stories abound, but not I wouldn't say as much as they were making it. And you stayed there. Yes, I stayed in the venue room. Absolutely.

The one thing that did happen, I mean, there was, you know, it was wasn't even planned. I went down just to take some pictures of a place called the The Need Path Tavern. Yes, right? Yes, and I was looking up other sort of famous places, and I was cross keys, I'll pop in for a pint. And um I was speaking to the guy and I said, I don't suppose any you've this certain rooms everywhere, I can't remember what number it was. He says, Of course, there's no one staying here. It's February. I wonder why. He says, You can have it. He says, Why are you asking about that room, son? I say, He said, I know, I'll tell you all about it. So I was the only one in the building. And um chatted at the bar to the guy till bedtime and you went up. But when I went into the room for the first time, and I noticed corner of my eye, there was like a a bag with a hairdryer swinging on its own. There was no window open, there was nothing happening. And I I think I got it on film and and talked it through as I found it. But uh that was about the oddest thing. Nothing happened through the night, there was nothing was expected. But it was good, you know. It was it was good, it was good for the book catching some stories from previous.

I mean, there's been a lot of stories there connected to you know what they assume to be the previous owner, so it's not as if it hasn't got a pedigree being haunted. I mean typically, I suppose a lot of these things get exaggerated at certain points, and so you know, this is maybe a huge expectation. Um, but yeah, it's some solid stories. So I mean, I would have been I'm I'm I would have probably been a bit nervous staying there, I would to be honest. I would have gotten a reputation.

It was a little bit. I mean, is is the night on? I mean, I was chatting away with the guy, and you know, I had someone to eat, and then I thought there really is no one else here. Yeah, where's he going? You know, there must be somebody on overnight, but it's basically me and this guy, and that's it. He's probably locked in a vault somewhere.

Crucifixing garlic. Yeah, it's wild. I know it's fantastic. Um, but I do like the old um the idea of an investigation. And I mean, you know, I I mean we've all got our lists of potential places. Can I ask Karen which which uh which is there a building in this vicinity that's or even anywhere in Scotland that you've got a a desire to sort of check out that we've you've not done yet, would you say?

I think there's loads of places actually that I would like to investigate. Um you put me on the spot now, great. I know sorry about that. You put me on the spot, trying to think now. Um a festival theatre, I think, will probably be an interesting to investigate.

Yes, yes.

I think that would be considering the history that's gone. Yes, yes.

That is uh I mean there is definitely a vibe there.

Yes.

Have you felt that when you've been in as a patron of the theatre?

I was, yes. I was in the front row as well. I thought, well, I don't think I like that stage.

Crimsons. It wasn't razor playing, was it?

It wasn't a razor playing. Yeah, what was it? It was some obscure obscure play that had uh Lisa Goddard in. Oh what's it called? It was called The Croft.

The Croft, I know the one, yeah.

Yeah, and was it any good? I could not make any detail of it.

I really couldn't I thought it looked like a spooky one.

It looked like a spooky one, but I got out of there thinking, what went on? I don't understand it.

You've got uh, I think uh have you got a story from the Lyce? Yeah, because John, I think you know something. Oh, from the the festival. Yes, first of all, sorry.

Yeah, um I did a day's work there in 1994. That was at a day. Now this isn't for me. So I gave it to my mate instead, and he's been there ever since. And um he took me a tour recently, got some good pictures for the book and stuff. Now, our friend Gordon from the Fourteen Society wrote a book on the story of the Great Lafayette, and I'm sure you're aware of you know, you know, the tragedy that befell that very sad story. And um at the end of the you know, the interview with Gordon I didn't he goes, Oh, there's no ghosts. I said, Really? So that's what we're here to talk about. He said, Oh no, it's you know, as far as I know, it's just a very sad story. So I'm speaking my pal Mark, the work scene, he says, Oh no, no, no, no, no. There'd been loads of sightings of things in the festival theatre. Used to be the Empire back in the 80s, and he says there's been a guy with a wooden leg sighted, there's been uh, you know, um a shadowy figure, possibly Lafayette, but there has been you know spooky goings on in the the festival theatre, and it's cool when you get backstage, it's really because I mean it's it's a fairly you know it's been rebuilt in '94, but a lot of the original features from when it was the the festival, uh well, not the fest of the empire back then, you know. But my favourite theatre story, we've got loads about Edinburgh. Favourite one's the Playhouse.

You know the Playhouse? I know the Playhouse. Oh yeah. I'm at the corner.

Yeah. Oh, so again, got another friend, we're all sort of old punks and metalers and stuff. We end up doing jobs like that, you know. Yeah, yeah. And um my friend used to be in the band Exploited, and he's worked there for many years in the playhouse.

Right.

And um he was telling me all about the story of Albert. Yeah, he even thinks he got a picture of it during lockdown. But uh in the 60s there was a break-in, and there's a police station right across the road, and um the policeman came over, you know, set the alarm, turned it off, and he said, 'I'll do the walk-round, make sure the place is secure.' And he went all round with, you know, like a you know, a staff member, checked out, and he says, Right, there's nobody here. If anyone's tried to come in, they're gone. So don't worry about it. The place is secure. I'll pop over tomorrow with paperwork. We'll um get that to you just to say thumbs up. Nobody in there now. And he did. He came over in the afternoon and he said, There's your paperwork, just corresponds to what I said. Says, so a big thank you to Albert for showing me around. And you know, oh, there's nobody here called Albert, pal. Says there was some years ago, but he died. Uh some years later in '97, they were having a it was like a you know, a get a grand a get-together of like all the you know, big politicians and stuff. They were using the playhouse because it was a sizable theatre. And um, you know, the IRA were still at large and there was still kind of bomb threats and stuff. They thought, got the prime minister and all these big wigs, we can't take any chances. So they got like the Sniffer dogs in to check the whole theatre over. And there was one section they would not go near. The dogs were terrified. It's a section where Albert's seen. So what they did was instead they got the the dogs from the castle to come in and check out. They went round no bother.

Yeah.

And they says, Why are those dogs any different? He says, 'They're used to ghosts.' Yeah. I thought that was a great race story. But aye.

The um castle uh the theatre. Um I think one of the uh I can't remember his job actually, this guy I was chatting to a few years ago, he used to take his dog in there sometimes, just you know, for company. And I think his dog, it was a Springer Spaniel, I think, used to freak out at certain points as well because of picking up on whatever was there.

Yeah, I mean, I I think perhaps I saw him a few months back because uh there's um there's a corridor by Albert's bar, and I and I just thought, oh, this is something vibey going off about the vibe. Yeah, um, and I peeked my head around and there was a woman coming up, and then there was a man in like grey overall things, he had like slip back hair, walking in the opposite direction. She didn't acknowledge him at all, and I thought, oh, are you are you one of them?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, the old spooky and I said to the girl that was working there, and I said, you know, is he seen back there? Or I said, Is there anything spooky? I should oh no, he's on the sixth floor.

Right.

And I'm thinking, nah, he he's not on the sixth floor, he's all over the place. So yes, spooky.

I'd be a good place to visit and do a investigation. Absolutely. I mean, a lot of staff have said that they've seen the figure and followed this figure, and it when the figure's gone into certain areas, the lights have gone out as if it's sucked the energy out, and then when they've walked on, it's got flicked back to life, which was something I heard, which is really interesting. Yeah. Um, but whether we can get permission to do these things, it's very I really don't know. It's very difficult. I could like have a little with that. Maybe couldn't it be great? I'd love that. Um have you got a particular place, John, that you'd like to do um in in Scotland that's being one that's kind of stuck in your mind?

Scotland, I don't know. There's so many interesting places, castles and stuff like that. Um we did uh have an interesting restory um a few years back. We were going around your neck of the woods, Aberdeen.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And um we were visiting lots of castles. We went to that wonderful one near um Stonehaven. Is it Dinata? Went up to um Ochindo, which is you know the famous folk song The Burning of Ochindoon, treachery and murder and betrayal. Uh we were over at Fivey, which is legendary. And the last one, you know, my partner Josh, she's a folk singer. She says, Well, go over to Huntley. She says, It's not really much there, but we'll give it a try. It's a ruin. So we went over there, and it just was royst and vasey written all over it. It just got weirder by the minute. Uh, and you know, it's hard to describe. But we went into this place, and there was no there was one family from Baden-Württemberg in Germany we got chatting to, and uh, you know, they went away. So we had the whole castle to ourselves once again, and just couldn't help herself. She's singing away. You know, we'd read a wee bit about the background of the family that owned it, the Gordons, how they'd been persecuted for following Catholicism when you weren't really meant to, and you know Big John Knox was kicking about, etc. And um they they continued to worship and they were beheaded for it. So she's going around, she's singing in the wonderful, you know, sound of what's the term oh the acoustics ruin, no roof on it, um, and she's singing for a good ten minutes, and she finished off with something in Latin, she was singing this song, and at the end she said it was silent, no one there, lovely sunny day. She says, I hope you like that, and gave a sort of cutscene that I'm not gonna do it because we're on air, but there was an almighty clap from above, yeah. And we thought, what could that have been? It was all like a skill of approval, you know.

Yeah, that's wild.

And it was, it sent a shiver down the spine that day. But uh, we were recently up at Slayne's Castle, oh yeah, and that would be a good one to hang around for an investigation, you know. It really just reeks, and it's Dracula Day today, I believe. Oh, is it? So there you go.

Happy Dracula Day.

Slain's Castle was the inspiration for Bram Stoker. He'd go to Cruden Bay on his holidays, and he was so inspired by um Slain's Castle that you know he considered that to be Dracula's castle. He'd sit in the Kilmarnock Arms and write his book. I stay in Cruden Bay, did you?

I wouldn't recommend it. No Kilmarnock Arms is alright. All right, but I know that we were in a a very modern bit to battle. It was not very pleasant, I have to say, but the bit you're talking about was very nice. And the castle's very good. Amazing. But what's what's sad is when you look at the photographs, that beautiful castle, and some farmer, some farmer loon took out the slates and lead, you know, in about 1920 to save on the tax and ruined what was probably one of the greatest Scottish houses ever. Fantastic looking building. And I don't know if there's much photographs of its interior. I don't know that I've ever seen any. In fact, it actually looked like what a place that would have been. It was, it was really an essence cliff.

The way when you're walking up the hill, yeah, it just comes into view like that, you know. That was pretty special, I thought. So I'd love to do the investigation.

Now, there's a few ghosts being seen there, but unfortunately this the the reports are pretty um you know, they're they're not giving much away because it's literally like it's meant to be haunted. Ghosts of Second World War soldiers, potentially servants, but not really meaty kind of real experiences. So to get something like that would be fantastic because it's a bit of an unknown quantity.

And we've also got our own homegrown sort of haunted houses. Yeah, I'd love to visit some of them, but it'd be quite hard. Down in Granton, where I grew up, there's a lot of these big stately homes, you know. I think there's five of them. We've got Craig Crook up the road, you've got um Your House Mansion, you've got uh what was the other one? You've got one up at Dr. Drylaw, but the big story as a kid was um Caroline Park House. Now Caroline Park House is next to Edinburgh College, it's beside where Morrison's is now at Granton and Waterside Front. But back in the day it was nothing, it was Texaco, it was an oil company that kind of moved on to the grounds and this big mansion. Um my mum, you know, who was 87 when she passed, she grew up in the area, and she also always said the story was of the the green lady, Lady Caroline Royston. And um she said that you know she was seen coming out the well and crossing the grass on certain times of the night and stuff, and it was a real local ghost story. There's there's you know accounts of people there was someone sitting in the living room and a cannibal came through the window and rolled across, and you know, there was no broken glass or anything. But I struck gold when I got an interview with a lady called Sharon Wood. Now Sharon lived there in 1976, right? Her mum was the caretaker, and she says, God, the ghost stories about that place are phenomenal. I think it's now it's now flat split into flats or something, yeah, yeah. But it is, it's it's iconic. She said that she was staying there and uh, you know, again, there was nothing there, there was no Edinburgh College, that was a very remote part of town, and um her mum, her sister was up to town, her mum was out, she was in babysitting, and uh there was like a courtyard and she could see a light on. She thought, oh my god, somebody's broken in, we're getting burgled. And she could see like moving from room to room, and she just locked the doors, got the the the kid in and says, I'll sit this out, but she could hear banging, all this carry on. There was uh you know, somebody upstairs throwing stuff around. She could hear all this carry on, and she thought, we'll just deal with it when the people leave. Eventually her mum returned home and she says, We've been burgled. Upstairs was an architect's office, and she says, We'll see it on Monday when he opens up, but it's not going to be pleasant. And uh, it came Monday morning, and the guy came and says, Prepare yourself, Ian. There's been a break-in. There wasn't a thing out of place, it was near a fingerprint, it was nothing. The dust there she heard it and she swears blind. There was absolute chaos up there, the place getting ramsacked. Uh, another occasion when she was playing with her pal in the loft, and there was like a dumb waiter came up on its own. That was quite spooky. There was no one else in the house.

So there's plenty of ghost stories about that place, the Green Lady. That's interesting. God, I wonder, I'd love to, I'm gonna have to check it out, especially if it's flats.

The the caretakers won't help you at all, they're malaria. What was it she said to me? She says it's not a it's not a ghostly matter, dear boy, it's a nautical one. You're hearing the wind from the fort. A nautical one.

Oh, it's very nautical of you to say that's like Garden Bennett. Yeah, some people some people have no sense of humor when it comes to ghosts. No, they don't. I actually once tried to get in touch with a community center that's meant to be haunted, not realizing that it'd been taken over a committee that was led by a minister. And when I emailed him, I got a very rude email back. Well, he wasn't very Christian in his response. How dare you talk about ghosts? Don't you know they're a child? Children in this building.

We once went to Wells Cathedral in Somerset, which is i i iconic. You know, it was famously, it was in the one of the ghost story for Christmas episodes. And I said, Oh, I've got to see I can't move it. And I'm in and I I I said to the the canon, I said, you know, good, you know, Donatians welcome. And I said, Here's 20 quid for you, mate. You know, she says, Good excuse, thank you. And I was just dying to ask them all about the uh the film and says, Were you here when they filmed it? And and luckily somebody says, Oh, don't whatever you do, don't ask about it. Just don't say a word, you'll throw you out. And he says, um it was used by uh Paolo Pasolini the following year, and he made a very dirty film with Robin Asquith in Wells Cathedral, and they were they says never again, no one's ever going to film after that. So he says, Do not bring that up. What was the film? Was it Canterbury Tales or something? Yes, Canterbury Tales, that was the one. Not I've seen it, by the way, folks. Yeah, no, that's right. He wasn't very impressed, the guy said, Good job, I never got a chance to ask him. That would be bad news, would it?

Reminds me want to um Google and the film, or is it a classic one of those films that I really shouldn't? I don't know.

Tom Baker wasn't it? I think.

Oh, okay.

Before he became Doctor Who he um he would he disrobed, I believe.

Oh well that's uh I'm definitely not watching it then.

He didn't have a scarf either in those days to cover his dignity, so we won't go on about that. But anyway, John, um yeah, so uh any final thoughts on ghost. What any plans for the future?

I mean, are we gonna So we've we've just brought that new book out, it came out in February, uh so that's good. We're throwing our ghost walks together, you know, we're going into summertime. So we'd I mean Leith, that's a popular one. It's good fun. We'd we were doing that one in the old town Portobello from time to time, war debate on you know, people request it. Uh-huh. So yeah, we're always most weekends we're doing some in Kerry who does North Edinburgh nightmares with me, but um, you know, she's she's a big part of the organiser for that. But um not not really that much, you know. We're just gonna like it's taking all that time to do the book.

Yeah.

We have got a very interesting plan for the future, um, but I don't know how quickly it's gonna come about. And like yourself, you used to into punk music and stuff, I used to be in punk bands. Um I thought let's compile some stories for punk rockers. So we've started writing this book called Punk Rock Paranormal, and I've been trying to get hold of anyone from bands, promoters, fans, and getting their own take on any personal experiences. Right. And I got some good ones so far, but it's kind of the trail slowed down a little bit. So if anyone's listening to this out there, if you're anything to do with music, punk music or heavy metal and you got a story, get in touch.

I might have a story for you. Oh, good, so I like the sound of that. I got one uh recently, and I've uh I've just been given a wee breadcrumb trail, but I've not got to the out of it yet. But the Moorings Bar in Aberdeen, Krakatoa, apparently um a few years ago there's a block of flats upstairs where the bands would stay, and there was a band sitting up there that was a Guns N' Roses tribute band who had a very creepy experience, which I've yet to find out what was, and they were managed by the guy this guy. Now I've got his name, and he was apparently the leader of the Scottish uh branch of the Order of the Golden Dawn. Uh I've got his name, so I'm gonna try if he's still around, because I don't know anything about the guy, to see if he could sort of illuminate or enlighten me as to what went on there. Um but one thing they did discover when they dug up the carpet, because the flats had been done up, was a massive pentagram painted in red, about five feet across one of the main rooms. So where that's when they do anything, I have no idea. But I will try and pass what I have on to you if I can get more maybe. That must have a bit of bad juju attached to it, finding that yours, you know. Well, the bar had so many creepy stories anyway, so I guess yeah, the whole block. I mean, I do remember one ex-barman he moved back to Canada. Or no, he was Scottish, he moved to Canada. He just alluded to the fact it was those flats were creepy years ago. So yeah.

Who has ever been to places where you've picked up a bad vibe? Like on you know, maybe not even an investigation, but just when you've been somewhere like and you've just thought this place has got to think now.

Ah no. Great friends. Oh right. The covenant went there. That's right. Yeah, we we went there last year, wasn't it? And uh we were in a big group and there was something in that corner by the gates that it was like a brick wall. I could not go anywhere near it, and of course all of them were all saying, We're gonna have a photo. I I literally could not go there. It was yeah, it was weird. I've had that before in other times, but not as strong as what it was that time.

Yeah, isn't that weird?

I physically could not get there because they it just in a I don't know.

House house in Aberdeen for me, just like in the attic. Okay, weird. It just I don't know, I was actually quite narrow. I it just felt like there was somebody behind the door and it wasn't good. Just wasn't good, and I just touched the door and I thought it was like it was somebody there, you could almost feel somebody behind it, and it's weirdly just went, but I was it doesn't happen very often. But like I say that in that time at the Royal Oak, yeah, I would say a handful of times, but yeah, disconcerting would be but yeah maybe this year maybe there'll be other places to discover. I know there's uh we've we'd uh chatted about places in Eborough perhaps to check out in the future, so who knows? Who knows? Uh not that I want anything horrible to happen. No, no, I just want something interesting.

A couple of interesting ones. Not so much about like you know, an out and out sort of evil vibe, but just something to absolutely change the way you feel. The only thing that's getting close to that for sheer dread was a pub in the new town. Would you like to hear about it?

Yeah.

If you go down Dundas Street and you come to a pub called the Wally Dug, if you go to the end of that street, there's a tiny wee hole in the wall pub called the Star Bar. Now then the Star Bar is repeatedly down in the basement as a skull. Anyone that messes with a skull, you die, plain and simple. And it's documented back to the 40s, lots of tragedy. There was um a chap brought it upstairs for the basement, a previous landlord had it on the bar, hanged himself for the steps back in the 70s. There was the guy who had another pub at the end of the street now, the St. Stephen's Bar, it was called Coconut Tams. He had the skull in there for a wee while he was gunned down in a robbery. There was floods, there was fire, there was all c all because of the skull. Anyone that moves the skull perish. And I thought, I'm not taking this lightly. So we we were in film and we did a wee episode about the haunted pubs, and um a friend who was a tour guide from Greyfire Cemetery is telling the story and we said at the end, can we go down and see this thing? And they were very hesitant. They said, Do you really want to? And we went downstairs eventually, you know, and I bottled it. I said, I'm not going near this thing. And it's in one of the catacombs, it's like a coal scuttle where they'd keep their coal. And I said, I'm not going near it. And when we went upstairs, we went in, it was like a Friday afternoon, everyone was in good spirits telling stories. I came up and there was this kind of couple of sort of inebriated f characters, and they'd been refused service. And they're going around with a bottle like that. I thought somebody's getting that over their head in a minute. I'm away. Says the mood has changed like that. And it is it, I really believe there's something quite sinister about that place. But this skull, it's under a bucket or something, and it's not advisable to mess with. I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't either. It did, it filled me with dread that it really did.

But why? You know, this is the question. Was it is it's is it the the the skull's owner, if you like, that's the one that's causing this or what? But I don't want to tempt fate with things like that. I know, I mean, I know people might think I'm being superstitious.

I wouldn't I wouldn't either.

Just my partner, she doesn't even like me talking about it. She kind of fats at me when we bring it up. She was in there once and she wouldn't go in, she says, No way. She says bad vibe in the um though gone in the place.

That scary story about the black lady of Lark Hall or whatever it is, is uh one which I've not talked about and I've I've found out a little more information about it. But basically it was a woman who was supposed to have been killed by a landowner, and her ghost just went and haunt this old mansion house which has now been demolished, but some of the stone found itself into the pub. So the stories are that she's seen around and might be very, very bad luck, and people have had accidents. In fact, if you go back to a documentary on YouTube from 1963, when this guy exercises it, and somebody who was filming it ended up getting killed in a car crash, like literally uh about a week later. And so there's also this weird vibe about it. And I spoke to a guy recently, he was uh an investigator, and I won't mention his name, but he's very well known, and he said, Oh yeah, I had a heap of documentation from it, and uh wish I'll burn when I've passed away because I don't want people to know about this. Wow. Because I had a bad experience, and that's all he said, and I never asked any more because I figured it was very personal. So I was like, okay, these things maybe shouldn't be messed with. I don't know.

I think that there are some things that you shouldn't you shouldn't dabble.

Anyway, on that note lights on. Well, thank you, John, for that today. Um in coming in and sharing stories. Thank you for having me. Thank you, John. Hopefully we'll uh do stuff together soon.

Yes, I'm sure we will.

Thank you.

As tonight the episode comes to an end, we want to give a special thank you to our guest, John, for joining us and sharing the chilling experiences and unforgettable stories. Some encounters may never have an explanation, and tonight they prove just how real the unknown can feel. Sometimes it follows people home. And sometimes those experiences can hit a little too close to home, even for us. Next time on lights on the deal scared, we'll be discussing haunted homes, the places it was meant to bring comfort and safety. Yet for some because of the centre of unexplained activities, shadowy encounters and sleepless nights. We'll also be sharing some of our own personal experiences and stories that will stay with us especially this day. Until then, keep the lights on and stay scared.

I keep the highlight on, but the shadows never fade. Every corner is per secret, so the choice is that I made There's a tallness the window, though the wind is standing still, and the chill runs down my spine like something. Maybe it's just a trauma if it goes to me. But every night it's a few person, but tell me if that's true.